A militiaman Aleksander Zhuchkovsky: ‘On Ukraine Independence Day the fireworks were good, from 122-millimetric...’

'We do not see any determination of Russia'

The officers of the Federal Security Service of Russia have recently captured in Crimea the Ukrainian saboteurs, connected with Defence Intelligence of Ukraine. It is reported that some of them fought in Donbass. Have the people's militiamen of DNR and LNR encountered the Ukraine Defence Intelligence officers? How do they act themselves?

I have not heard that someone from the militia knew these people. Tens of thousands of people went through ATO, they are not some famous faces, popular soldiers so that we knew them by sight. It is not necessarily that they fought on the front lines.

Vladimir Putin promised to respond harshly to the infiltration of these saboteurs, not to leave it without response...

We expected a prompt response in 24 or 48 hours. But there was no strong reaction. In political terms, Putin stated that Normandy format is meaningless. But in military terms, he began to carry out serious deployment of armed forces on the border of Ukraine and Crimea and Donbass. For the first time since August 2014, a large group of 'vacationers' has entered now. This is for the case if the Ukrainians decide to take some serious actions. But it's not for some attack. We do not see any determination of Russia or Russian representatives to do something on their own first. They are waiting for some action from the opponent. It's a fallback measure. We don't see any specific reaction, what's upsetting. It seems that Ukrainians, as usual, will get away with nothing. But they say that this is only the beginning, it is planned a number of activities, and only then Russia will start to act. But so far it's all only words.

Do you believe that there will be some real response from Putin?

It's not a matter of belief. I know by experience of 2014, when the situation was so critical that Russia had to intervene because the Ukrainian troops approached the Russian border, Russian citizens began dying. As you know, about 10 people died from shootings on the border with Russia. And the Republics were cut off from each other. Now the situation is not so critical, although the attacks take place every day, there are dead and wounded. But not so much that Russia immediately acted. I'm afraid we'll have to wait until a critical situation, a lot of victims, and then Russia will again be forced to intervene. I hope that this will not happen, there will be some prompt action.

I know by experience of 2014, when the situation was so critical that Russia had to intervene because the Ukrainian troops approached the Russian border, Russian citizens began dying

'Everything will end with a big war… up to the world level'

There are reports that the Ukrainian troops are going to seize the settlement of Yasinovataya. Can we say that Ukraine is preparing to intensify military actions?

It is predicted constantly. If you read the daily reports, messages of people, this situation is constantly predicted. Every two or three times in a month, there are constant aggravations: shellings, increasing attacks, therefore, everyone is preparing to attack, troops are being prepared, politicians are beginning to speak out. It's been happening for a year and a half since the treaties, constantly once every two or three months. They were going to capture Yasinovataya at the end of 2014, there were such concerns. Theoretically they can do that, throwing huge amounts of force, and actually it makes no sense. It is unlikely to succeed. It will be regarded as the real attack, and countermeasures will be taken, which are disastrous for the Ukrainians.

But still, will there be a big war?

A difficult question. It is not decided here but at a high level, at the world level. If the West, the U.S. fights by Ukrainians, Russia — by the hands of the militia of DNR and LNR. So, how Russia, the U.S. decide so it will be. I have a feeling that will be. A strong knot of contradictions has ensued, it will be not so simple to cut it. Everything will end with a big war, and not at the level of Donbass-Ukraine but up to the world level. Everything is heading in that direction. I do not see any fact which would testify that everything will be resolved and that we are gradually coming to peace. There are many indication of a war.

'An independent DNR is perceived as an intermediate stage'

In your account in social networks you give comments and letters of the local residents, including critical ones. What sentiments prevail in DNR and LNR?

First, people have already become used to the fact that they it will not happen soon when they become a part of Russia as Crimea did. Second, the sentiments are fatigue and hopelessness. They understand that it will last a long time. Very few people want to return to Ukraine, mostly it is a narrow-minded opinion — anything but not war. The local patriotism dominates. People like the idea of the Republic. They have already forgotten about Novorossiya as a unifying project. But if you ask about the true motives of the people who participated in 2014 in the referendum, who have fought, they want to be only with Russia. They do not have the idea of complete independence from Russia and Ukraine. The absolute minority are for Ukraine, the most part – for Russia. An independent DNR is perceived as an intermediate stage, you need to wait a bit. But people are angry, of course, because they are tired of uncertainty. They are even ready to live poorly but if only there is some stability, certainty. And when there are no such things, it is a nightmare for people, especially for those living in front-line territories.

But if you ask about the true motives of the people who participated in 2014 in the referendum, who have fought, they want to be only with Russia. They do not have the idea of complete independence from Russia and Ukraine. The absolute minority are for Ukraine, the most part – for Russia. An independent DNR is perceived as an intermediate stage

People's militiamen vs volunteers-'Right Sectorers'

Who prevail among militiamen – Russians of the residents of Donbass? Are there many foreigners?

The absolute majority is local people. You should understand the difference in the current membership and the membership in 2014. In 2014, there was 20-25% of Russians. I personally was engaged in transportation of volunteers from Moscow, Saint-Petersburg and other regions. It was an upsurge moment. There were many people from other regions of Ukraine — Odessa, Kiev. There was 40% of local people, 30% — from other regions of Ukraine, and 20% — from Russia. Now the situation has changed a little: a lot of Russians left because the ideological guys were disappointed, many felt that it was not their war. I must say that these figures are approximate. Now it is about 70% of local people. The rest are from the occupied territories (Mariupol), or from central, eastern regions of Ukraine (Kharkiv).

Are there many foreigners?

Of course, there are, but not so many. Perhaps, they are 0.001%. If someone appears it becomes known: a Frenchman, a Serb. But they can be two in a battalion.

Why do foreigners come here? What is the motive?

As for older people, they have some socialist views, who are nostalgic for the socialist camp, the Soviet Union. For them the war between the West with the socialist East continues. As for younger people, there are all sorts of adventurers in the best sense of the word. They believe that in this war Russia is right. Mostly it is people sympathetic to Russia, the former Soviet Union. If the Slavs, it is clear: we were in Yugoslavia, they are our people, they come to us.

There are a lot of myths about the Ukrainian volunteer units. From whom are they formed? What is their role? Is it true that they distinguish with cruelty in this conflict?

As a rule, it is ideologically radical Ukrainian nationalists with unclear objectives. Initially it was Right Sector (the organization banned in Russia – editors' note) then they have grown: Azov appeared, Donbass, Tornado, etc. They have voluntary principle of formation. There were times when our armed forces agreed to cease fire but they broke this mode. They are well sponsored by American structures. The Vice-President personally came to Azov in Dnepropetrovsk, gave money. They have good weapons. They fulfill different political orders. They train, they have a site: they train on live targets, they have snipers. They, though volunteer, but they are generously invested, they have good payments, good supplies. It is a good asset for someone — for some oligarchs, foreign structures.

You should understand the difference in the current membership and the membership in 2014. In 2014, there was 20-25% of Russians. There was 40% of local people, 30% — from other regions of Ukraine, and 20% — from Russia. Now it is about 70% of local people. The rest are from the occupied territories (Mariupol), or from central, eastern regions of Ukraine (Kharkiv)

'The local economy, we can say, supported ATO'

Has the influence of Rinat Akhmetov been preserved in the region?

It is rapidly falling. Over the past year there appeared local oligarchs, including among the leaders of the Republic. They have divided the DNR as their own property. Akhmetov has a very little part left. Moreover, he even is forbidden to enter here legally. The lists are made and he can't come here. He provides humanitarian assistance, has his own charitable fund. It is clear that the man has lived here his entire life, invested here, some influence remains but becomes smaller.

Due to what do the economy of DNR exist?

Mainly due to the supply of coal, some metal industry. The economy is flawed now. The main problem — all economic ties with other regions are cut off, of Donetsk — with other parts of the region. All production has collapsed. In general, the region lives at the expense of subsidies from Russia – financial ones and various supplies, it is 80%. Someone leaves to work in Kiev. If to forbid, many will lose their jobs, it will create even greater poverty. So, in general — coal and metals. A large part of the economy is black that gives a lot of possibilities for speculation.

Where do coal and metal products go?

Mostly to Ukraine. Such a strange war. Moreover, there have been episodes when coal was sent to the Ministry of Defence of Ukraine. That is, the local economy, we can say, supported ATO to shoot at us. Such an absurd situation.

Strange, indeed. It is reported that humanitarian supplies from Russia are stolen or get on the shelves of stores. Have you noticed such things?

There were moments, mostly in 2014-2015. Then we have taken it under control. There were inspections from Moscow. But supplies also have become smaller, there are no such big convoys, they have become rarely now. But the episodes did take place. I saw that in commissaries. There were cans that say 'Not for sale', but they blatantly were selling them. There was a mess, no order. But enough time has passed and the things have been put right. Clearly, people still steal but not as much as before.

In general, the region lives at the expense of subsidies from Russia – financial ones and various supplies, it is 80%

Why are the most charismatic leaders of the militia removed from the political scene? They suddenly die or they are simply pushed to the political margins.

Very difficult question. It is difficult for me to say with 100 percent probability what happened to these popular commanders. To me it is difficult to say because I am a military man and can not always say directly what I think, what I want to say. Anyway, I do not think that it was action of the Ukrainian subversive groups. I also do not think that Plotnitsky personally gave such orders, he was not authorized to do these things, it is not him who decides such issues. Everything was done in the framework of establishing an individual hierarchy in the Republics, with no independent elements. This especially concerned the fact that these people were against the Minsk agreements, the political line. And they were a threat. Because in the framework of the Minsk agreements there were plans to make DNR and LNR a part of Ukraine. And the commanders spoke out against and were unpredictable in this regard. Therefore, they passed away. This is a very tragic story: the death of popular among people and the militiamen people, brave commanders, all of them I knew personally. But the world of politics is cruel, especially where there is a war. And we cannot do anything there.

The very meaning of the existence of Ukraine is the confrontation with Russia, russophobia. And there is no other Ukraine – a Ukraine for Russia, a Ukraine friendly to Russia

How do you think how strong is the party of peace in Ukraine?

We need to investigate. I do not study their model. There are very unhealthy people who do this. I think there is a strong war party in different variations — larger or smaller radicals. The very meaning of the existence of Ukraine is the confrontation with Russia, russophobia. And there is no other Ukraine – a Ukraine for Russia, a Ukraine friendly to Russia. Anyway everything is against: either a war of extermination or there are people who say that we need to agree on Ukrainian conditions. But there is no such peace party.

For example, the notorious Nadezhda Savchenko said that they should negotiate with Plotnitsky and Zakharchenko...

Savchenko is not an authorized person on the issue, so her statement can be taken as a personal statement of Nadezhda Savchenko. This is all very interesting from the point of view of the whole her story, from when she was released. At first, I thought that indeed it was a shameful failure of the Russian authorities. But then I looked t how she is behaving, I think they have seriously worked over her. And she was released in order to provoke the Ukrainian government. And, basically, she copes with that, what is curious. But in general, she is not an officially authorized person, so it is too early to talk about it.